Interview with the Maker of Liquid Trust

This is the second of my interviews with vendors of oxytocin products. Also see this interview with Mike Delaney, who sells OxyCalm.

 On August 4 2006 I spoke by phone with Jonathan Gilden of Vero Labs, makers of Liquid Trust. Here's an edited transcript of our interview.

Hug: Please give me some background on your company. When was it founded?

Gilden: In June 2005, following the study at the University of Zurich. The study showed that inhaling oxytocin made people more trusting and more open to listening to suggestions. The idea was simple: perhaps this would be a good consumer product. For example, a salesman's biggest obstacle is [getting people to listen to him.] We created a product that would assist him in at least getting the ear of people and not be written off right away. Also, as oxytocin is known as the cuddle hormone or bonding hormone, we wanted to open that door for people.

Hug: Do you have other products besides Liquid Trust?

Gilden: Not at this time, but we do have plans in the coming month or two to release at least one more product. There also are some future products and ideas in the research and development stages. I can't disclose whether they're oxytocin-based.

Hug: How was the product tested?

Gilden: I don't know. I hear the skepticism -- it’s a natural reaction to something of this nature. But the company offers a money-back guarantee. If somebody is skeptical, if for whatever reasons they believe it doesn’t work, the risk is extremely minimal: It's a 60-day money-back guarantee. Even if the person uses up the whole bottle, we'll refund their money,

Additionally, one of the companies reselling our product, Love Scent [an affiliate marketer],  has created a forum for people to talk about the effects they've experienced.

Hug: Is Liquid Trust regulated by the FDA?

Gilden: We do not recommend drinking it or applying it to the skin. We recommend putting it on one's clothing. So it doesn’t fall under the FDA's authority, because it’s not something that's administered. The product is similar to those in the pheromone industry, Natural Attraction, for example.

Hug: Did you experiment with self-dosing as you developed the product? Can you share some of your experiences?

Gilden: I have used it, but I don’t have any specific stories. I don't have a rocky relationship with my wife, but she does seem more calm since I've been using it.

Hug: How much oxytocin is in a dose? How did you arrive at this dilution?

Gilden: That's always a sticky question. It's a fair question, but for this company, the formula is its biggest asset. It can be verified that the product contains oxytocin, but the ratio of oxytocin in Liquid Trust is a trade secret.

Hug: The product also contains alcohol and water; elsewhere you mention a time-release factor that makes a spray last two to four hours. Is there also a time-release chemical?

Gilden: My understanding is that this is similar to pheromones, the hormone comes off you just like cologne. If you apply cologne, it doesn’t last all day, it softens as time goes on.

Hug: Critics say Liquid Trust has too little oxytocin to be effective. What's your response?

Gilden: Look at the results other people have experienced. Anyone can take advantage of our money-back guarantee. If you are skeptical, there's no reason you shouldn’t try it.

We tried to create the most effective product that we can. There's a lot of research that should substantiate the effects of oxytocin in the product.

Related story: My Oxytocin Dose

Comments

[mo]

LiquidTrust's product ingredients states you use human oxytocin. How is this possible? Do you have donors or are you getting your oxytocin from cadavers? Please explain......

[Susan Kuchinskas]

I believe he means bio-identical oxytocin that's produced in a lab -- not extracted from humans. But please note, this is an interview conducted by Hug the Monkey, not a series of statements from Hug the Monkey. For more details, you should contact Liquid Trust directly.

[Liveavatar]

I want to be sure I understand what's going on here -- if oxytocin is being sprayed on someone's clothing, won't the most affected person be the wearer of the clothing?

In other words, won't this result in the most open, trusting salepeople on the planet?

I like the idea, but nevertheless I foresee a few problems. :)

[Susan Kuchinskas]

Yes, that's the idea: You spray it on your clothes, and other people trust you more. If it worked, it would make the salesperson seem more trustworthy to customers.

Actually, good salespeople already have the ability to evoke the oxytocin response naturally and unconsciously, as does any one who is "good with people."

[Liveavatar]

I was referring more to the effect of the oxytocin *on the salesperson*, who will be wearing the sprayed clothing and will therefore be the most affected.

So the salesperson will trust *other* people in general more -- from a business standpoint, that could cut both ways.

[Susan Kuchinskas]

Oh, of course, you are so right! It certainly seems that the salesperson, who's wearing this stuff all day, would be much more affected than people he comes in contact with. "The truth is, Mr. Smith, my product is all wrong for your company and I'd hate to see you waste your money on it."

[Prometheus]

This product cannot possibly work. The molecular weight of oxytocin is high, and thus, it is not the slightest bit volatile. Therefore, wearing it on one's clothes will not affect anyone, not the wearer or others. To obtain an effect from oxytocin, it must be administered intranasally (dissolved in water) in sufficient quantities, say 6-24 IUs or 12-48 micrograms of oxytocin.

Liquid Trust is a HOAX. Do Not Buy This Product!

[Scott]

I am a 24-year-old male with autistic traits. When the "trust potion" was discovered, I eagerly awaited a product that would increase my own oxytocin levels. In a world plagued by strife and competition, I felt that the option to increase one's own trust would be valuable in social situations.

I am very upset to see that Liquid Trust is designed to make *other people* trust *you*, appealing to not only greedy salesmen but also to rapists, criminals, and people who are socially manipulative. It seems to me that the creator of Liquid Trust wants to maximize his profit at the expense of our well-being. We must therefore ask ourselves if we can trust *him*.

If he chooses not to take Liquid Trust off the market, I recommend he give us another product we can use to increase our own oxytocin, so that we can privately observe its effects in ourselves and decide whether Liquid Trust is ethical.

[Scott]

I am a 24-year-old male with autistic traits. When the "trust potion" was discovered, I eagerly awaited a product that would increase my own oxytocin levels. In a world plagued by strife and competition, I felt that the option to increase one's own trust would be valuable in social situations.

I am very upset to see that Liquid Trust is designed to make *other people* trust *you*, appealing to not only greedy salesmen but also to rapists, criminals, and people who are socially manipulative. It seems to me that the creator of Liquid Trust wants to maximize his profit at the expense of our well-being. We must therefore ask ourselves if we can trust *him*.

If he chooses not to take Liquid Trust off the market, I recommend he give us another product we can use to increase our own oxytocin, so that we can privately observe its effects in ourselves and decide whether Liquid Trust is ethical.

[Susan Kuchinskas]

It is scary to think that unethical people could use a product to help them manipulate or take advantage of other people. It's not a trustworthy thing to offer such a product.

But remember, con artists are already very good at manipulating the trust of honest people. In general, trust is a double-edged sword. It allows us to be open to the warmth and intimacy offered by others, but it also opens us to hurt.

[Lincoln]

It could be theorized that there is a placebo effect at work when using Liquid Trust. Just the thought of gaining more trust could make the user more confident. This confidence would also make the user calm. As a calm person who is in charge, the user would probably release more natural oxytocin which would get others to trust the user.
What do you think?

[Susan Kuchinskas]

That makes total sense to me. If the wearer did have a fairly well-developed oxytocin response (not everyone does), wearing Liquid Trust could indeed create a sense of calm, lowering anxiety and allowing a better natural oxytocin release.

[midyeardave]

I have heard that everyone generates oxytocin but some people's oxytocin receptors have become insensitive - they do not all react to the presence of oxytocin. So, you might be generating it just fine, but not able to experience all its benefits due to receptor insensitivity. Have you discovered any way to "wake up" insensitive receptors ?

[Susan Kuchinskas]

You're basically correct. Everyone does generate oxytocin; receptors in the brain and body -- for all substances, not just oxytocin -- do vary in their sensitivity among individuals. They also vary over the course of your life, even from day to day.

Receptors are cellular structures that chemicals lock onto, enabling the cell to make use of them.

That said, there is a theory that the sensitivity of the body's receptors is "set" by the first time it comes into contact with the substance it's designed to take in.

There's one circumstance that's been shown to not only wake up oxytocin receptors but also cause more of them to appear: pregnancy. So, it's likely that there are other experiences or situations that might do the same.

Aside from receptor sensitivity, it's pretty clear that you can heal the oxytocin response. The brain is plastic and can reorganize itself, in response to the right kinds of experiences. These include psychotherapy that involves a real relationship with the therapist that grows over time; caring for others; caring for pets; and, I think, caring for yourself consciously.

Scientists haven't totally figured out how oxytocin and the brain work; but what they do know tends to affirm old-fashioned wisdom, like, "hugs are good for you."

[midyeardave]

I recently read that some women experience oxytocin release when engaged in organizing tasks such as cleaning up around the house, putting things away, etc. Has your research shown this to be true ? Being a bit cynical, this sounds like something a lazy husband would wish to be true . . .

[Susan Kuchinskas]

That's a very interesting and potentially alarming question, Dave. I answered in another blog post: http://www.hugthemonkey.com/2008/02/the-nesting-ins.html

I would love to know where you read that.

Susan

[midyeardave]

Susan - I saw the article in last week's (early Feb 08) issue of Quick and Simple magazine. There were two separate articles in that issue having to do with oxytocin.

[Susan Kuchinskas]

oh kill me now. Why aren't I writing these articles for these big-name magazines? I didn't see them, will go look now and then get depressed.

[midyeardave]

Susan - The current issue of Popular Science magazine has a mutli-page article on oxytocin and its potential benefits in treating autism.

[Best Pheromones, Dating Tips On Flirting, Attract Women, Attract Men]

All you have to do is to look in the mirror and ask yourself what you see, if you want to know how to attract women. Catching the attention of women is about how you present yourself and not how attractive or how unattractive you think you are. You may be turning women off if you aren’ t taking care with your personal grooming because women value cleanliness. If you take the time to shower each day, keep your hair cut and shave, then you have just stumbled upon one very important secret about how to attract women.

[Mark Waldman]

First, the facts. Oxytocin (OXT) is used to stimulate abortions and speed up labor, and it lasts only a few minutes in the body (see Wikepedia for verification and more info). The nasal spray cited in the research papers only increases trust and generosity in the person who sprays it up their nose shortly before playing a money exchange game. Then it wears off. The FDA would come down hard on anyone offering nonprescription OXT, which is why this company tells you to spray it on your clothes. Trust is built by reading the other person's facial expression, and by being physiologically relaxed. Even alcohol is more effective than OXT in lowering defensive distrust. The studies were designed to help understand the role that OXT plays in pleasure, attachment, generosity and trust (see papers by Paul Zak for more info). And don't believe word-of-mouth "evidence;" placebo accounts for 25-75% of all subjective improvements in health. So why do people continue to buy ineffective products like this? Read Newberg's Why We Believe What We Believe: Uncovering Our Biological Need for Meaning, Spirituality, and Truth or the belief books by Michael Shermer. Perhaps one day a pharmaceutical company will come up with a way to deliver a constant dosage of OXT to people who have trust-related disorders, but we're a long way from that.